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[Issue] Mission Reset Exploit

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Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:19:00 - [1] There is an issue that exists where if a Player scans down a Mission and steals the item that is required to get to complete the Mission, the Mission Runner can open a petition to have his Mission reset because he does not want to 'pay' the other Player to get the item back, and does not want to let natural game mechanics to take their course. As per this post: Originally by: State Security I've actually had this happen several times, I don't pay, just drop a petition and they reset the mission. That's REALLY good when the mission is a nice fat Bounty one too and I was almost done with it...KA-CHING! This is an exploit that must be fixed, as it gives Mission Runners the ability to re-run the Mission, and does not give them the 'risk' of failing the Mission itself. Of course, they always have the ability to check the local Market and 'buy' the Mission Critical Item, however, this GM sanctioned exploit should NOT be permitted. Consider it this way: A Mission Runner doesn't want to engage a Player who's stolen their Mission Item. That's fine, they don't have to. (They aren't being forced to, either.) The Mission Runner has the ability to 'fail' the Mission by closing it, thus, losing standings, or wait until after downtime so that the Mission resets itself. A GM should not interfere with the natural gameplay of Mission Running, even if someone enters a Mission for the purpose of stealing the Mission Item. What would happen if the Player stole the Mission Item a second time? Would the GM restart the Mission again? Would the Player get warned for griefing, even though it's been documented that this isn't an offense? The options they have available are simple - shoot the thief, buy the item, fail/close the Mission, or wait until after Downtime. I would like to see this problem fixed, so that ALL GM's are aware that they CANNOT reset the Mission if the Mission Runner has had their item 'stolen' by an opportunistic player. We're Recruiting!
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 15:19:00 - [2] I support everything I have to say. (Usually.) We're Recruiting!
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 16:03:00 - [3] Originally by: State Security Having thought about it, I keep comming back to several things we just do not have the information on and are most likely not going to get. Perhaps I should have posted this. Originally by: GM Faolchu It is perfectly within the rules of the game for someone to enter your mission area and steal the loot/salvage from the mission NPCs. If they happen to also steal the mission specific loot again this is within the rules of the game, it is a harsh circumstance but it is allowed. Eve is a harsh place and there are often things that happen to you that are not perceived as being entirely 'fair'. Concerning when you actually manage to loot the mission item. If you lose your ship between the time you get the item and the time you get to your agent there is nothing we can do. Unless your loss was not within the game mechanics but within game mechanics is a oft disagreed upon point between Gamemasters and players. Again this can be perceived as harsh but this is Eve. Care to reconsider?
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 18:35:00 - [4] Originally by: Jason Edwards CCP decided to reset missions instead of punish those players for harassment. Back up your posts with a CCP link, or kindly stop posting. As it is, I've provided the latest information I have, and what you're posting is pure conjecture. (That's the nice way of saying "Proof or You-Know-What's-Next".)
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 23:44:00 - [5] I appreciate the amount of conversation in this post, one way or the other, but I would like to call everybody back to the fact that a GM has provided the "Official Ruling", and other GM's are not managing the responsibility as expected. Please make sure you check the 'supported' checkbox, so that the GM's know that we're watching, and keeping them in line. If not, the next GM Exploit could be against you!
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.16 23:45:00 - [6] Originally by: Lisa Waen A relatively easy fix would be to make all mission specific items owned by the 'runner. This may not elimiate all mission required item theft, but it does give the thief a flag even for items that drop into its own container and are unowned within the current mechanic, eliminating the potential CONCORD response. That exists today, if I'm not mistaken. I believe that when the Player takes the Mission Item, he is immediately flagged. (I don't run Missions - never will - so if I'm incorrect, please let me know.)
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.17 12:34:00 - [7] Originally by: Venkul Mul I think that no GM will reset a mission if the target item was stolen by another player unless it was one of the starting missions done in the school system by new players. I've heard reports of it from a few of our Alliance Members, whereby they were not in starter systems, and the Missions were immediately respawned, so I do believe that it might happen, if even sporadically. My reason for this vote is to bring to light the possibility that the GM's might not have a 'rulebook' per se, as much as a 'go with your gut on this one' when it comes to resetting Missions. (Hell - you never know if the Mission Runner hasn't said, "I've killed everything, and the Mission Item didn't drop" to get the GM to intervene.) In this specific instance, it affects more than the Runner, and that's the reason for my request. Originally by: Venkul Mul But then harassing new players in the starting systems can be a bannable offence, while doing the same thing in all the rest of EVE is not a problem. QFT. Starter Systems have been off limit for a long time now. We're Recruiting!
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.17 19:16:00 - [8] Originally by: Venkul Mul Some reply by people that actually do missions and don't steal loot and salvage for isk and giggles would be much more credible. ITT: People missing the point. Regardless of your personal view of who's credible (and I'm beyond reproach, tyvm - why do you think I'm not an NPC Ninja?) or not, don't you think supporting a 'fair and just GM exploit resolution rulebook' is a good idea? If not, feel free to not respond, because I'm leaning towards that chance that you might be trolling my thread. We're Recruiting!
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.20 19:42:00 - [9] Originally by: Venkul Mul And what is doing a corp called "Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service"? Hard to guess, right? You've got it - we're Ninja Salvagers and Looters. That being said, we've seen first hand the damage Mission Runners do to a system (come to Dodixie for the Missions, stay for the lag) and we do our best to clean up the clutter. Regardless of whether we steal your Mission Item or not, is it fair for the Mission Runner to reset their Mission? Give me a RP reason why this might work? (Oh, all of the sudden, we're suddenly rocketed backwards in time? This isn't Star Trek.) Originally by: Venkul Mul I am not trolling your thread, I am truly convinced that you are strongly biased in your OP and motivated reasons that are far away for fairiness and justice. "Fairiness" aside (sorry, couldn't resist) it's an issue that needs fixing. At the very least, Devs must be held accountable to a certain level of discretion, and this must be upheld across the board. If it's not fair to reset a Mission because someone stole the Mission Item, then everybody should be held to the same rule. Originally by: Malcanis In the hypothetical case that such proof could be obtained, would you support Tchell's proposal? I'm guessing no. Somebody seems a bit too biased against us. We're Recruiting!
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.20 20:59:00 - [10] Originally by: Drake Draconis With all due respect.... valid reasons aside.... all your doing is weakening the barrier that leaves some risk to literally zero risk. I'll admit it - there's no risk today! I've figured out that Frigates (my Frigates, anyhow) can easily tank 3+ Mission BS's for the duration of the salvaging expedition, and that there's little a Mission Runner can do to combat what I do. Sure, I'll lose some Salvage to fast tractors or blown wrecks, but yeah. There's nothing that can really hurt me in a Mission. (...kinda like the Mission Runners, eh?) Originally by: Drake Draconis If anyone is guilty of bias.. its you Tchell... right down to the core. I invite you to look up an old post I made in regards to smarter AI, including Mission Rats that would appear specifically to aggro suddenly appearing Ninja Salvagers, and smarter AI that could follow you out of a Mission if you ran. Both of these options were ideas to increase the flexibility and immersion of the Mission Running system, and not further bork it, as it is today with the "perpetually resetting mission" hack. I'm not biased per se, but I'll fight to keep what I have now for as long as I can.

Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.20 21:22:00 - [11] Originally by: Venkul Mul The point is that thie "exploit" don't happen. The only "proof" you put out is the word of your unknown alliance mate that can set them reset. Wow, that's a good argument. "It doesn't happen, so there's no need to hold CCP accountable to a set of rules." I'm being rational. You're being foolish. I'm done responding to your foolishness. It's obvious you have no intent on agreeing, so I'll ask you (again) to troll elsewhere. We're Recruiting!
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.21 00:27:00 - [12] Originally by: Venkul Mul Your thread speak of a "Mission reset exploit" not of "give the GM a comprehensive and fair set of guidelines". So I reply to your thread and your OP. Read below. Originally by: Tchell Dahhn A GM should not interfere with the natural gameplay of Mission Running, even if someone enters a Mission for the purpose of stealing the Mission Item. <snip> I would like to see this problem fixed, so that ALL GM's are aware that they CANNOT reset the Mission if the Mission Runner has had their item 'stolen' by an opportunistic player. Here is the information you're claiming doesn't exist, right from my OP, and if you need a translator, perhaps one of the kind denizens of New Eden could help you out. The content of a post is much, much more than the title. We're Recruiting!
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.21 13:45:00 - [13] Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath Seed all mission items on the market and this gets my support. Make the price high enough so a lower price can be asked by the loot thief. That should make both parties happy, no? That works for me. Of course, if you've ever checked the Market, there's always a huge amount of Mission Items there for the purchasing now. It might just be that the Mission Runner is unaware (and who am I to tell them?) but still, they are available, and usually at very reasonable prices.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.22 00:59:00 - [14] Edited by: Tchell Dahhn on 22/01/2009 00:59:13 Originally by: Wardo21 When my mission running fit has some usefulness in this sort of PvP encounter, then it's not harassment. It's not harassment now, or there would be actions taken against the perpetrator, which there are not. Originally by: Wardo21 As it stands now, the item thief has a ship he knows will be at an advantage against 90% of the ships he's likely to face in the mission. If the thief recognizes the mission they might even have time to tailor their damage output to go against a weak spot in the mission runners tank. (Hrm, a Raven in a Guristas mission, I think I will switch to an EM damage gank setup...) Welcome to EvE. Been here long? Originally by: Wardo21 Not to mention how many mission runners carry a point on their ships? That's about the last thing you need in a NPC mission. There is no real risk to the thief unless they get alpha strike destroyed, or for some other reason can't warp off fast enough for the incoming DPS. Exactly right, and exactly why it's done. Here's a tip - don't engage the thief. I have a question for you - let's say your Mission is invaded by someone stealing the Mission Item, and you petition to have it reset. You get it, and the thief returns to steal the item again. So, you have it reset again. What happens when the thief petitions you for harassment, since he now has had to steal the Mission Item twice. (You're obviously griefing him, because your exploiting the GM's Mission Reset and not using "normal game mechanics", a term which is quoted - oh so much - in the forums.) What then? Why is it fair for you to call foul on harassment and not them?
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:07:00 - [15] Originally by: Drake Draconis And until there is risk... you will not be heard. I don't care if your queen of the galaxy. Thank Me (heh - bigger than the Queen) that you're not the only voice to be heard. That's a very limited view you have there - "Tchell Dahhn is being selfish, so let's not even listen the ideas that make sense." That's ok - Mission Runners aren't the only Players in the game.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.22 17:52:00 - [16] Originally by: Drake Draconis Passionate, passionate words. I stand corrected. You have made me rethink my entire profession, and I thank you for your input.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.22 19:56:00 - [17] Originally by: Drake Draconis Funny who this whole thing stems from a single quote from a GM.... Technically, two. Both CCP Ytterbium and CCP Prism X seem to share the same opinion, which leads me to believe there's more 'silent' support at CCP that we don't hear from.
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.23 00:19:00 - [18] Don't make me come back there! I swear I will turn this ship around! We're Recruiting!
Tchell Dahhn Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.01.23 19:58:00 - [19] Don't make me come back there! I swear I will turn this ship around!

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